FoxInCloud - or other?

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FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby billamidon » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:48 am

Anyone care to share experiences moving a VPM application to a browser accessible system?
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby rg400005 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:25 am

Hi,
my story is not really about moving to a cloud environment, but maybe it helps..

Once upon a time ( 2002) I used VFP (5,6) for fat client apps and J2EE for the rest.
I updated to 7 was not very happy with it and didnt use VFP for a long time, because everybody told me, VFP will no longer be supported, you have to do web and crossplatform.

So in 2007 I moved to Omnis Studio, and had also a closer look at Servoy. Cool thing: If you have a big budget and the time and knowledge to migrate.

I also tried to use Drupal, OpenCms, OpenAtrium, SpringSource, Vaadin as a platform. We also had a server based app but.... everybody was telling : it is too slow, we have to install plugins which do not completely fit perfect in any browser environment.

Then something magic happened: they kept the Database-Server with all the business logic, wrote some wsdl-adapters and a fat client in C# and removed the app-server. With this they also save a service contract and a app-server.

So I was rethinking what I really need for my use-cases.

Im still in a network, so why not a fat-client. My data is stored on a network drive and synced to a other machine, which is serving as webserver. The webpages are hold very simple, so they run everywhere. Everything possible is linked and on click rendered very fast.

And all the people using it, are very very happy with this low cost solution.

If you need SAS-Apps ( Software as a Servive) go for cloud....

But if you want to find a way to keep old investments find a way to live in both worlds.

BTW: Developing in a server environment means also, you have to setup environments to simulate and test on all devices your app should run on. How many testers and budget do you have ?

In conclusion : it doesnt matter which cloud u use, but u should try and use one, to get experience and do the next step.

Rainer (more than 30 years in software development )

XBase since the 80s
VFP since FP2.6
Linux since Suse 1.0
Java since 1st Jave conference in Germany
Automotive/ Telematics since 2001





My fat-client is VFP with Promatrix
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby billamidon » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:29 pm

Thanks Rainer - I enjoyed reading your response. It sounds like you have had a diverse IT experience over the years.

I come back to this whole think ever year or two. I have looked into Alpha 5, it allows me to continue using my current application at the same time as an Alpha 5 browser based application. That is the only type solution that is realistic from my perspective.

I came across the FoxInCloud web site recently, sounds like an interesting project. Tying into VPM is probably more of a head ache than creating the Alpha 5 app, but I thought it was worth asking around.

bill
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby rg400005 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:10 pm

Hello Bill,
thx for liking my story..
After all those years, its still the same topic. When I started with mainframes everything was different, because it was very expensive. Then came MDT (IBM /34, ... AS/400) and the PC-Network with Novell ....
Now they do the same story in cars and mobiles..

But what I have learned from on of my last projects. Lets change the front for the user, but keep all the rest.
Maybe VFP is not a fit - for- everything... So change the GUI and keep the rest as a web service, ajax-client, or whatever they will call it

Its not so long a go, you had either to write plugins or use flex, silverlight,... to replace the client functionality. Today there are very powerfull js-engines and html5 for the browser doing cool things, but over a network where you don't know how and when it is running 100 % you have to write programs in a different way...

Web and cloud have their benefits. So in my opinion, instead of porting 1:1 give the user the experience and feeling they expect from an new technology. This means also think about new ways of writing and shipping apps and maybe also a new business model of getting your revenue.

Rainer
Greetings from South of Germany...
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby DavidLeMesurier » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:21 am

Have you looked at Lianja

www.lianja.com
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby billamidon » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:17 am

Hi David,
Lianja looked to me like it would not be able to maintain my same data back end and write to it at the same time as my current VPM/VFP app. I use VFP dbc and Advantage Database Server, Alpha 5 will let me utilize both against the same data back end.

Another concern is that this is just another Hank Fay "Project-Du-Jour".
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby DavidLeMesurier » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:19 am

Yes it would not be able to hit the back ends you want to. It can hit MS sql server

Yes Hank is very keen on it, as I am as well.

I've been able to build apps with it that run on desktop and have tested them on IPad as well, windows, mac, linux with no change in my code.

I see cloud computing as the future way to go as everything is moving to be accessible from anywhere with any device
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby rg400005 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:48 pm

In "older desktop times " there was this joke:
why do you try to open a window, when you can open a door.
Don't know what will be the same joke for cloud(y) software..

I think it needs always a data-, a logic and a presentation layer. And around it, a lot of transaction and security logic.
If you don't need a huge bandwidth with thousands of concurrent user I would keep my logic in a app server ( even a vfp dll) and replace the frontend ( would aptana studio or phone gap fit ? )

Have you tried avfpx with a framework for the presentation layer ? U could also use a J2EE - server on windows with a jdbc-odbc-bridge or the jdbc-driver for vfp ( like servo...). How about load balancing, do you really need it.

Have fun in the cloud ( as long you are sure, your hoster is really in the same country like you, and will always update ssl libs).

Rainer
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby stecenko » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:37 pm

Would any of the people who have read or responded to this thread be willing to get together someplace in the next few months for a 2-day conference on VPME, the cloud, and all this stuff?

Those who have a project that pushes the envelope could bring along an example. We could rent a small conference room with a projector. And see presentations and code. We could discuss pros and cons. I'm pretty sure there is not going to be one solution that works for everyone. Rainer's comment is critical: what are the criteria that determine what goes where and on what platform?

Or we could make a list of the potential alternatives and each of us could volunteer to download the trial version and try to develop a fairly representative little application. Then present on the experience. Because we are all VPME developers, we have a common benchmark and a common measure of performance. We understand each other.
Richard Stecenko
Interactive Computer Services Inc.
Victoria, British Columbia
204.453.2052
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Re: FoxInCloud - or other?

Postby rg400005 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:56 am

Hi Richard,
..Rainer's comment is critical:
not critical but my life experience starting with html 1.0 in the late 90s up till now.
In the past we were happy , to have something on the web server, written in ksh and echoing html to the rest of the world.

Then a lot of ideas came and the enlightenment. HTML is stateless, it needs a refresh, and html is not the same as on the client. Java time : but : you are in a sandbox, servlets are a cool thing, but its not very nice to have a lot of code in each webpage... And then flash, and all the others... Ms went .net the rest went J2EE.....but it took long to get a real app on the web. And one big thing: do you have a style guide before the start, do you own all the copyrights on backgrounds, images, styles, templates...

Does your hoster like your infrastructure: you could make very nice web apps with ms tools, but only a few hoster accepted the ms plugins on the server...

So you could go the lamp way or run your own datacenter ( I had a server for my zope sites).

Today a lot has changed, in the past we even didn't think about having permanent refresh in the browser to push and pull ajax data. But before you start: get the books : writing secure code, web masters admin guide, ... hackers bible, and if you have a change to get the conference slides from the german dfpug conference about the migration a app to web from rainer becker ( I guess its the 2012 conference)....

For a meeting I had to travel a long way, so here some of my brainstorming to open the list.

What we have today.
A enterprise framework, with a active data dictionary and vfp-data or remote data..

A first step would be replacing the gui ( hope you have all your logic in a business class instead of the forms, and the report engine ( if somebody still needs it ). But its cool to have one, its the simple gui ever. Get a query or build one from a link and echo a html page or a pdf, which can be rendered by any device.

Or you can go the other way, use VPME as a app container ( runs only on ms environment) talking to a server app via soap, ajax,....

Next way, keep the database and replace everything by a real web app ( avfp, lianja, servoy, spring roo, ruby on rails, Omnis Studio or .net)

The key point is : every things sounds cheap, as long you are in a developing stage. As soon you say the magic word productive server, you will be amazed about the price..


What I have tried and why..

1. VFP Data with odbc running on a lamp with drupal. Why Drupal. Its very powerful, you get a lot of modules even shops... And it cares about the presentation on any device as its based on templates and skins.
But you have to learn php and the frameworks
2. VFP Data with obdc running on a lamp with OpenAtrium ( based on drupal). It has the drupal core and it runs out of the box.
3. Servoy : they put a lot of work in it, there is even a vfp wrapper available. But the only thing you can keep is data. And remember the magic word production....
4. Omnis Studio : very powerful, but a complete new infrastructure, and the magic word again production
5. OpenCms ( with a J2EE App-Server -Glassfish). The only thing u can keep is the data via odic. But also very powerful and one of the cms standards. But you have to learn Java.
6. Eclipse with Java7 ( back to my roots) Java has made a great step forward to put a lot of things in one place you had to do before with spring and other things.
7. Eclipse with Java7 and the Vaadin framework
8. Eclipse with Java7 and Spring Roo
9. Eclipse with Java7 and the type framework, scala and aka

After all that I ended with VFP9, VPM9 and AVFP. But I don't have to serve interaction on the appserver side... This makes the thing simple as I have only a few pages to save, which ( ok not nice but doing the job) still hold code in the forms instead of a abstraction layer and a controler.

The list is open... happy to read about your experiences.

Rainer
--
about me see: https://www.xing.com/profile/Rainer_Greim
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